@BruceDawson0xB it's fine, I asked, I'm OK with being ratioed.. trying to learn stuff

@SparkyRobot @maijasauna that's why we hire 100% remotely. Live where you want ;) It's the future of all IT, in my book!

one application I particularly like is "the bigco engineers had to threaten to strike so the bigco food service workers could make a living wage". I'm 106% down with raising *other* fields up.

I'll also add that in the case of Kickstarter, which was already quite progressive (b-corp, etc) it does seem especially odd that they wouldn't be receptive to this.

@dylnuge @not_ced statistically, everyone in tech is rich. Certainly compared to, say, food service workers. That's kinda my point.

@Felienne I'm trying to understand! It makes more sense to me as "the engineers need to complain so the food service folks can get a living wage"

@maijasauna @SparkyRobot that's a starting salary for zero experience. My starting salary as a programmer in 1993 was $14k, $25k adjusted for inflation.

@mikerugnetta @chadloder "the engineers had to complain so people in *other* wildly underpaid fields could make a living wage" makes sense to me. It's also less self-serving.

@DenisTrailin @mikerugnetta if you want a foothold for tech union, game companies are probably the place to start. It is kinda surprising there wasn't much enthusiasm from Kickstarter given they are so progressive in many other ways (b-corp, etc)

@nota_bennett I'm not saying it's a bad proposition, in fact it makes more sense to me that way. Tech is so very rich it doesn't need "protection", certainly compared to other industries / folks.

@chadloder @mikerugnetta that approach certainly makes more sense to me, at least

@chadloder @mikerugnetta not quite; it's saying that a tech job is pretty cushy salary wise, so maybe it makes more sense for the tech folks to work in solidarity with other industries (food service workers, etc) to raise them up?

@MrTurnerj @JakeHerrington @ASpittel @bootrino $14k in 1993 inflation adjusted to 2019 is $25k

@MrTurnerj @JakeHerrington @ASpittel @bootrino my first FT programming job was for $14k/year in Boulder, Co in 1993

@mjg59 @DenisTrailin @mikerugnetta this makes so much more sense to me when I see you work at Google. I like Google, and I agree internal pressure matters.

@broady @mjg59 @jbqueru @mikerugnetta I'm listening. I'm just not convinced this is a workable strategy in this specific industry. Prove me wrong by doing it!

@rory_blyth start small. Don't try to do it all in one mongo blog post. Do a series. Tell the first part .. then continue.

@KristyT @MattHutchison43 why the (non execs) disclaimer?

@daveadams @mjg59 @ericlippert @Carnage4Life this is an .. unconvincing .. answer. What are your options when you work at bigco and want the bigco cleaners to be paid more? Only the union?

@DavidLublin yes, agreed, the contract worker case does make sense.

@not_ced I'm fine with a ratio, I want to learn stuff.

@MattHutchison43 OK, to your point about lots of people working in lots of different places in the industry .. how would this even work for those folks? A national union that universally affects all programmers in every workplace?

@nvll @Carnage4Life based on average IT salaries, though, everyone in tech is de facto coming from a place of privilege. Compare with, say the SAG and struggling actors, who make virtually nothing.

@maijasauna I assure you it a very commonly held sentiment, though

@mjg59 @ericlippert @Carnage4Life (and by "anywhere" I mean "in tech")

@mjg59 @ericlippert @Carnage4Life It's just .. weird .. and super indirect? "I want the cleaners to be paid more at bigco, therefore us rich programmers must unionize and go on strike." So the only way to get bigco to do anything is to.. strike? Has this worked anywhere?

@nota_bennett (1) I'm talking year zero entry level no experience IT programming job, for which it is "rich" and (2) is a rather different proposition

@justinrwlynn @mjg59 how asymmetric can it be when you can quit and quickly get another job -- probably for more money? I agree it makes sense in other fields, but I struggle to make sense of it in tech.

@mjg59 it does make more sense outside the context of compensation, at least to me

@laripley it certainly makes much more sense outside the context of "our super rich field needs more salary". Has this *ever worked* though? Are there examples of it working?

@nota_bennett actual IT salary statistics disagree, though. Even a hello world entry level programmer makes the median US salary. Struggling actors make basically *nothing*.

@tobywhughes @jaydestro The average entry level programmer salary is basically the median US salary. The average IT manager salary is one of the top 25 best paying jobs in the US. If you're in tech, *you are in a position of privilege*.

@acousmatique @tobywhughes @jaydestro is trump still president? then no

@dolinsky @rifforama @Is_Just_A_Guy it seems like an industry where you only have 10-15 years of useful "career" would have much different time pressures.

@mjg59 @jbqueru @mikerugnetta or maybe we should pay more attention to industries where people *can't* quit and immediately make more money? 🤔

@chadloder @mikerugnetta Tech *is* the people at the top of the food chain, based on statistical salary ranges in the US.

@BrandonBloom @rifforama @Is_Just_A_Guy that aspect of it does make sense, but also the entirety of the NFL is.. what.. a few thousand players? And the NBA even fewer?

@jbqueru @mikerugnetta "if you *really* want a big raise.. quit" is the deepest and darkest truth in tech there is.

@rifforama @Is_Just_A_Guy so the millionaires can keep the billionaires at bay? Not a compelling mission statement in my book.

@ericlippert @Carnage4Life it's difficult to see it as much more than "rich get richer" in the current climate. If it isn't about wages *at all* then I suppose it's more defensible?

@odd_dimensions @jaydestro well yes, if we were talking about workers being paid subsistence wages, whereas "IT manager" is one of the top 25 best paying jobs in the US https://t.co/sqhT1uOFE6 and "entry level programmer" starts at the *median* US salary https://t.co/CxAlJ6VFfH

@tobywhughes @jaydestro what I'm specifically saying is that everyone is out to get you, and no one can be trusted

@lordeagle So we all hire agents like hollywood stars and NBA stars? 🤩

@jaydestro nobody ever has your back, not really. Only you do.

@etjossem @Carnage4Life I think industry ethics and responsibility lessons from a software engineering standpoint would be great, but that doesn't really relate to a specific company. It'd be like IEEE or ACM?

@Carnage4Life I honestly don't understand it. I think unions make great sense in other contexts, but not this specific one.. it feels like furiously paddling upstream

@rory_blyth we need that blog entry!!

@tqbf (minus,maybe browser security, I'll concede that's a rare one. Even then you could switch from 1 of 4 'big' companies at any time and likely get a pay raise in the process fairly easily.)

@tqbf I can guarantee you for everything you listed, there are at least 10 startups that would take an interview with a candidate *this week* with those skillsets.. and they'd probably give equity on top of a high salary

@Is_Just_A_Guy they mostly have *agents*, like hollywood stars, which is a rather different thing

@tqbf everything you just listed is a very high paying, highly skilled job, with tons of demand. I'm not seeing it, honestly.

@davidgerard I think they have a very long, very hard road in front of them because the incentives are so far from being aligned at the moment. Could that change in the next 50 years? Perhaps?

@CiPHPerCoder @tqbf I know for sure @tqbf is. He's an elite member of an elite industry with unlimited future upside (that is, computer security).

@tqbf can't you trivially get pretty much all of that by quitting and working somewhere else, which is easy to do in tech? Or, starting your own company or consulting firm, because.. well, you're rich?

to be clear, I am not saying I am *against* this, only that it doesn't make sense to me in this particular industry, specifically.

@mikerugnetta if the company doesn't have sane policies, quitting (and spreading the word) is the best way to teach them that. I can kinda see the latter case, where employees want more say in the company direction.. but again: where has this worked? examples?

@mikerugnetta yeah but these rich tech workers are skilled, they can snap their fingers and get another job. Often for *more* money. In fact, one of the running jokes in the tech industry is the best way to get a pay raise is to quit.

@bootrino median US income in late 2017 was $59,039. Not many 'tech' jobs pay less than that.

I can sort of understand the desire to unionize in tech not for the money, becauser it's already a very rich industry, but to have more say over the company's overall direction.. I guess? Has that ever actually worked?

Relevant to your interests https://t.co/rqtZeJMZ5Q

@mitsuhiko @domenkozar @tedavery also built in charger (as in, the charger is part of the scooter) on ninebot max is just DUMB. Why have the extra weight??

@domenkozar @tedavery this one? https://t.co/o1pxG5LFYE

@patio11 they didn't miss the Internet at all, but it's fair to say they completely whiffed the phone.

@tedavery lol Segway was *purchased* by a scooter company! check wikipedia for details!

@Beschizza you are a bad, bad man

@ironicsans adblock?

@DaveNCheez that one's not new, they just didn't upgrade it when changing the shell + screen. iPad Pro all the way ;)

@kwiens @ashleyrcarman just read the pull quotes in that tweet and the reply. A12 (and presumably A13) has hardware mitigations in the silicon that prevented the entire class of exploits.

@ashleyrcarman @kwiens There are hardware exploit mitigations in the newer devices. https://t.co/vA9ezSnPCJ

@IamLizu @discourse system is an odd username, for sure, but it's the internal discourse system user

@IamLizu that's the flagging user. It can be read from left to right as "system, with a historical flag agree rate of 100%, flagged this post as 'needs approval' 1 day ago"

YouTube science time y'all https://t.co/UwDh37znis

Internet Archive to the rescue, as usual! https://t.co/2JmVESBxUw

@ComradeEevee https://t.co/IHeqTuiQY8

@Beschizza Oh and keep moving, always keep moving, use the side teleport or force object shield if needed

@cszhu @Hanzo55 Preach! 🙏 https://t.co/BkeHP39d5D

@Beschizza I also upgraded my throw power to max as rapidly as possible so I am clocking dudes with giant things like forklifts now.

@Beschizza The gunplay is sooo easy though. Did you get the “spin” gun form? Shoot until you need to regen reload, use force powers until energy exhausted, switch back to gun, repeat forever

@Pinboard @jhripley personally I think quantum is like real AI -- always discussed, frequently the boogeyman, but basically impossible in *our* lifetimes, at least

@Pinboard it's.. unlikely.. but we can't say for sure. Again: https://t.co/IJUFmCbVsu

@Pinboard See https://t.co/IJUFmCbVsu

@Pinboard well, there is one kernel of truth there: if quantum computing actually *happens* (this is a big, big IF in my opinion) then all existing encryption gets instantly broken overnight

@kevindente Ok I am mixing up "iPad Air" ($499) which is A12 and "iPad" ($329) that's my bad.

@kevindente Wait, the entry level iPad is on A12 not A10 my friend!! A12 is not chopped liver!

@kevindente the entry level $329 one? how was it "updated" then?

@Beschizza Can you provide a sample clip?

@ZachWeiner Haha I said “that’s a tough one” and elected not to vote as too close to call based on the time durations. I was right!

@deadprogrammer @simon_frankau 𝓢 𝓗 𝓘 𝓝 𝓖 𝓨

@antoniogm @bronzejaguar @MikeIsaac I don't think Uber's gonna survive the next 10 years, personally. Fish rots from the head down.

@antoniogm @bronzejaguar @MikeIsaac Incorrect. People haaated taxis, they were dirty, super biased (in who they'd pick up), had zero smartphone integration, wouldn't take credit cards, and were basically cartels. There was tremendous incentive to change because the status quo SUCKED.

@antoniogm @bronzejaguar @MikeIsaac if that's the case, Lyft (and a ton of other stuff) wouldn't exist. This "the world needs more morally bankrupt a-holes, because *only* morally bankrupt a-holes can get anything done" narrative you're hewing to here is really.. peculiar

@antoniogm @bronzejaguar @MikeIsaac if the argument is that without TK, on demand smartphone based ride sharing would never have happened at scale, I'm thinking.. no? that's not the case?

@antoniogm @bronzejaguar @MikeIsaac my favorite was when he argued, on camera, with an uber driver in an uber ride and was a complete a-hole to the driver. Not a good idea, shockingly.

@antoniogm @bronzejaguar @MikeIsaac this isn't a new cocnept but TK seemed exceptionally morally bankrupt. I heard horror stories from the outside for years and years such that I auto-hard-passed any requests https://t.co/DPg5RGi2rH

@Beschizza it does the freaky corporate vibe sooo well though

@oliviasolon @jowens510 @danehrlich11 not to my knowledge

@rossrubin Send them to https://t.co/EUtpQXggrS for a USEFUL titanium object!!

@textfiles nice, any common brand patterns?

@cshirky why doesn't MIT donate the original contributed amount to those causes?

@jpotisch @deadprogrammer oh that's like saying thicc is misspelled, whateves!