@technologypoet You could also argue that the normal “hey isn’t it good business to listen to your employees?” guidance unavoidably breaks down at nation-state sized companies? Should companies be run as countries, democratically? Hell does *democracy itself* even work any more (trump)?

@technologypoet And honestly I had no idea the subject was that complex. The more I looked, the more complex it got! Perhaps nation-state sized tech companies *have* to be governed from within (if federal regs don’t work?) and unions are the only way to achieve that?

@codehitchhiker Yes on 3 for sure, but as for the other two, the statistics say that compared to other fields tech is *very* well off — and requires no special education, unlike, say, becoming a doctor or dentist. Scan the education field here as you scroll down https://t.co/wDmwMPgWgt

@technologypoet It is also an indirect cue to reflect on the idea that some discussions may not (and cannot) work on Twitter at all, to the point that they actively backfire

@karlgroves @BruceDawson0xB No, I actually wanted to learn. Those replies are probably the most I have thought about unions in my entire life, at least since I watched the movie Norma Rae in ~1980. Not exactly a daily hot topic in the US

@technologypoet I did do that as well, no “wronged” involved, I just think it’s a really amusing type of criticism to make on Twitter https://t.co/tFJk772Phc

@toomuchpete @barney_parker No, abuse has never been allowed. I am merely pointing out that “how dare you tweet an insufficiently researched hot take” is an absurd criticism to make on Twitter.

@mimismash @bona_fide_rebel @toomuchpete @jakewsmith I honestly don’t even remember the previous conversations, but it was 3 years ago? TBH like I said, unions aren’t something I think about much. It came up because of Kickstarter.

@toomuchpete @bona_fide_rebel @jakewsmith TBH my (limited) understanding of unions is based on the movie Norma Rae. Have you seen it? It’s pretty famous. And statistically, people in tech *are* rich relative to the rest of the professions in the USA.

@toomuchpete @barney_parker There is a clear expectation that research is required there, including a prior duplicates search. Also more than 280 chars. (And you need to be a practicing programmer that could get hired as a programmer, if you wanted to be.)

@codehitchhiker TBH that discussion was probably the most I have thought about unions in my entire life

@toomuchpete @barney_parker Stack Overflow and Twitter are wildly different platforms, with radically different goals.

@marktnoonan “Easy” is often in the eye of the beholder, isn’t it?

@toomuchpete @bona_fide_rebel @jakewsmith Oh you mean in replies to pinboard. Yeah there at times, but only buried in reply, never on blast to everyone.

@codehitchhiker @alth0u @MaxeyWen @alexkyllo Not understanding that tech unions aren’t primarily about pay is dangerous? TBH I am not sure it is something the average developer even thinks about at all, so highlighting it is probably beneficial in terms of raising awareness.

@karlgroves @BruceDawson0xB https://t.co/mZvW54m5I3

@DivineOps oh there's a whole book based on that article https://t.co/zaitFlJpAR it is good but already out of date sadly

@esesci Not.. really? There's mountain view, oakland, east bay, south bay, etc. I like SF but there's nooo way I'd live there.

@esesci good thing not everyone in the US lives there, then!

@esesci the image says individual though not family

@DivineOps if it gets very personal, I do block. I want to think Twitter users are getting a bit better over time at not fully unloading on people as they navigate this new "everyone can talk to everyone in public 24/7" smartphone world we live in

@alexkyllo @alth0u @MaxeyWen Norma Rae is a very, very famous movie for a reason. Check it out. Many awards won.

@Bloodymirova @chadcthomas the international differences are really interesting

@alexkyllo @alth0u @MaxeyWen Have you seen the movie Norma Rae? I watched it as a kid and that is basically what I know about unions. Not like there's a whole ton of them in the US to learn about, these days. Should unions take on a new digital form? I dunno? Maybe?

@MaxeyWen @alexkyllo @alth0u I'm not very good at coding either

@alth0u @MaxeyWen @alexkyllo and per https://t.co/cm9WJ9aB52 .. https://t.co/OHLndZcNC9

@alth0u @MaxeyWen @alexkyllo the original tweet meant rich *in the USA relative to the rest of the USA*, and it's .. still true. See https://t.co/oPbQOw8wEt https://t.co/eWTGATPzFp

@alth0u @MaxeyWen @alexkyllo I hope y'all have a lot of time because if I have to apologize for everything I don't understand we're going to be here a goooood looooong while

@drewtetz https://t.co/a8QiUe27NI not sure why slacks isn't on there though, I remember it from other lists like this

@alth0u @MaxeyWen @alexkyllo I apologize.. for.. not understanding how unions work? 🤔

@chochosmx it's like you've told me a million times to stop exaggerating

@jakewsmith it's also OK to be wrong! I was asking a question; I got answers. I learned stuff.

@nkennedy I already posted a clarification https://t.co/Oh5CcHtfTs

@alexkyllo it's not supposed to be

@mgwilt I prefer to read them in blog post form, or unrolled (if that's the only way) https://t.co/0MikHSfraP

@honestduane impossible within the 280 chars constraint. But ayyyyy 280 chars is twice 140!

@drewtetz is it worse than moist slacks

@courtneynash @bootrino I agree, it's about more than the money. But tech is about the only job where you make this much money without spending 8-10 years in the equivalent of medical school; note the "education needed" field as you scroll down https://t.co/wDmwMPgWgt

@jef4wi https://t.co/TgLSYiEBSk

@jef4wi I'm willing to take that bet, and I'd even triple down on it 🎲

@jef4wi it's.. possible. But like "AI", I think this is one of those mirages that will be always be on the horizon, just out of reach.

@KateRoseBee I don't work at Stack Overflow in any capacity, and have not since early 2012

@bootrino @courtneynash here's the median salaries, includes many roles. For the US anyway. https://t.co/oPbQOw8wEt https://t.co/VolTrwTbYT

@TravelingAnna @mikerugnetta it is mentioned here, at length https://t.co/Gca9JSaLmN

@mattbrowndev I'd also add that Twitter ain't exactly the poster child for "why did you not research this extensively before making statement X". Quite.. the opposite.

@mattbrowndev the funny thing is, that gets said a lot on Stack Overflow as well, doesn't it? "Why didn't you read before.." 🤔 On the other hand if there is a great article about this, documenting tech union specifics and successes, feel free to link it!

@rafael_falco I attribute all of this to lack of "cool hair" 😎

@anotheruiguy @borovia65 @danluu I refer you to https://t.co/uf3PShfVp2

@monteiro love ya mike 😘

@maxharris9 I didn't see much abuse personally, though maybe Twitter suppressed some of it. Anyway it was meant to be a discussion and learnination experience, which it was.

@deadprogrammer everyone knows states' rights are BS anyway, yeah?

@Blaise_V @stevesi exactly lol

@mikeal yeah one of the things that emerged here is nation-state sized tech companies. You could make a valid case that those *have* to be changed from the inside, in an almost democratic way.. somehow

@ajclayton yeah the one I super-hate is "no sidewalks allowed, ever" along with "you must have a valid driver's license". Those are just ... bad. I am more than fine with a speed restriction specific to sidewalks.

@ajclayton one of the things you quickly learn is that electric scooter regulation is all over the map

@RobWolfe median salaries in the tech industry https://t.co/oPbQOw8wEt https://t.co/I6vj2hWlxq

@kevinmontrose watch The Good Place, it has a good answer for this at the end of season 3! Plus the show is generally amazing.

@andresoventi @Carnage4Life it does make more sense in the game industry, I agree

@forkazoo oh geez the police thing is awful for sure.

@kevinmontrose I have some bad news for you Kevin

@kevinmontrose well you don't *have* to

@paulgibbins I learned some things!

@awalton @CrispinCowan0 @0x7eff @carrickdb yes, but compare "struggling programmer" and "struggling actor" in terms of salaries. Not even close.

@jkyles10 here's median salaries in this industry https://t.co/oPbQOw8wEt https://t.co/xi05NI0ROI

@KeziyahL @StackOverflow not really, I have very little contact with anyone there.

@KeziyahL @StackOverflow no idea, haven't worked there in any capacity since early 2012!

@SparkyRobot @Norpchen Sparks are extremely great

@migueldeicaza (and I think the replies to my tweet indicate this is a subject that is FAR too charged and nuanced for 280 char tweets to really cover it cc @danluu)

@migueldeicaza needs a blog post we can all link to and cite! There may be others like me who misunderstood the effort, as well, so that bears some explanation.

@burncoryburn I have it there for a reason!

@ronelsax @migueldeicaza and my view was changed! I really thought unions are mostly about pay and coal mine / crop picker level subsistence working conditions.

@ra6bit Yes, I like the way you stated this. Using power to help others (rather than ourselves, as in "rich get richer") helps me understand this.

@migueldeicaza what is the status of unions at Microsoft, where you work? Time for a blog post 😉

@OluseyiSonaiya @CrispinCowan0 @chaddattilio @bootrino the tech unions topic is wayyy more complex than I realized, that's for sure. So maybe it's good for it to be discussed so these nuances come to light? I'm particularly warming up to "tech companies which become so big as to be nation-states have to be changed from the inside"

@danluu I vote blog entry on your blog. ;) It's clearly a topic that touches many nerves!

@monteiro I'm evolving! I posted an update here https://t.co/Oh5CcHtfTs

@OluseyiSonaiya @CrispinCowan0 @chaddattilio @bootrino in the Uber case, no union was required -- external publicity did the job. (and as I mentioned, it was known toxic in tech circles before this. I got approached about Uber stuff in 2015 and I literally said "hell no, your company sucks".)

@tqbf @danluu maybe it'll happen one day? I always thought the "because Twitter needs to kick Trump off its platform" reason to organize was absurd, but people have presented other reasons that make sense. Guess we'll see.

@tqbf @danluu well yeah, sure, but we can only afford 1 *maybe* 2 of them based on our income and balance sheet. I get where Apple could be pursuing hundreds of things as R&D with basically no impact to the bottom line.

@tqbf @danluu it could be that this is inevitable at any company once it gets to nation-state size (and power) like the big tech cos.

@danluu Would be an interesting blog entry (not from me LOL, from you). Would be interested in an answer to my question: did you feel, while at Microsoft or Google, employees were systematically not listened to?

@gjim_83 @dylnuge @not_ced Not if you use the median https://t.co/oPbQOw8wEt https://t.co/wcvAjFYNqD

@ClarissaAdjoint @flaviusb @danluu I think it makes more sense for companies to actually listen to their employees. Perhaps as companies get very, very large and become nation-states the process breaks down?

@danluu to me, it means companies are systematically failing to listen to their employees (or even follow existing federal laws related to discrimination, etc), and everyone loses in that scenario. Do you feel this was the case at Microsoft, and Google, both places where you worked?

@OluseyiSonaiya @CrispinCowan0 @chaddattilio @bootrino Uber is the big one. It was *well* known in tech circles even before the blog entry landslide, that Uber was a pathological place to work. Little did we know exactly *how* pathological.. I don’t expect Uber to survive long term

@oswaldodantas @dylnuge @not_ced Statistically, in the US, the entire field is rich. These are the numbers, this is the data. https://t.co/oPbQOw8wEt

@borovia65 @danluu First of all, no u, and second, at the vast majority of mature tech companies nobody is asked to work crazy hours or be on-call 24/7.

@danluu If tech unions are a good idea, then they will inevitably happen, yes? I can sorta see this argument with the really big techcos which are today like their own nation states. Maybe they can *only* be changed from within, or via antitrust.

@KirinDave @broady @mjg59 @jbqueru @mikerugnetta if it's a good idea, if it works, if it makes sense, it will happen no matter what any one person does or says. I can definitely see it for contractors and within the game industry, specifically.

@jujuadams primarily, I actually listen to the people that work at the company. I certainly get where at bigcos working at nation-scale this can break down, sometimes radically.

@mr_d_todd Relative to, say, schoolteachers and food service workers? Absolutely. https://t.co/oPbQOw8wEt

@laubaiwri true, my comments were only mean to be about the USA https://t.co/oPbQOw8wEt

@candeira I do think it can make more sense in the case of contractors and other specific areas.

@AlizeNero I mean rich relative to schoolteachers, food service workers, etcetera. https://t.co/oPbQOw8wEt

@laubaiwri relative to, say, food service workers? Absolutely.

@ysaw fair, but I also believe failure of management to actually listen to the people who work at the company is the primary pathology. Look closely at the Kickstarter example in the news right now.

@AnthonyBarranco @mikerugnetta working remotely is the future, it's just not evenly distributed. Yet.

@ysaw I think there's a loooot of other people who think this way about unions, too, wrongly or not... so worth discussion.

@TashasEv @seldo yeah the whole "kid supports the family" thing was a real eye opener to me. My parents would both probably rather die of shame than have me send them money.

@TashasEv @seldo the golden handcuffs